Vaccination

[ 1/11/20 Toms Facebook Page – vaccination]

Tom,

You are becoming a threat to those you love.

Please put more effort into understanding biology.

It is vastly more complex than “Its a war out there”.

Humans exist as we do because of our ability to cooperate.

War destroys things.

Cooperation builds things.

Our survival long term rests on our ability to recognise that universal cooperation is the only path with any significant survival probability.

If anyone can get deeply enough into the strategy of living systems, then this becomes obvious.

Vaccination works.

[followed by]

Fact – smallpox no longer kills people – that is a result of vaccination.

Sure – there are multiple levels of strategy out there in virus and bacteria in terms of infection strategies, and some of them are not amenable to vaccination. It is a highly dimensional strategic domain.

And in some of that strategic territory, vaccination is extremely effective, and not all.

And sure, we need to test vaccines, constantly. It is possible to get things wrong, accidentally and deliberately.

And there is no shadow of reasonable doubt that vaccines are saving thousands of lives per day in the spaces that they are genuinely useful.

Making a blanket statement that vaccination is bad is not healthy. It puts people who believe it at significant risk of death.

[followed by]

It is often not war.

War is a very temporary phenomenon!!!

And I speak from a personal experience.

Prior to the MMR vaccine becoming available I had measles 5 times, and one of those I only just survived (was a week in bed, unable to move, unable to bear any light at all).

We were fortunate to have a house with a room with no windows, and I was put in that for a week.

[followed by]

Viruses that kill all their host exterminate themselves.

Measles is complex. It essentially resets the immune system removing all immunity previously built up. So nobody ever really wants to catch measles.

Because of measles I got mumps twice.

My childhood had a lot of illness, and I was very close to death 3 times.

All real living systems are complex.

All contain aspects of competition and cooperation.

What I am clearly saying is that, in respect of a complex species such as ourselves, with the creativity we possess, any system we adopt that is not fundamentally cooperative (however many competitive systems we build on that cooperative base) is, in the long term, self terminating (much as lethal viruses are).
I’m not saying such systems cannot emerge, clearly they can. I am saying that they necessarily self terminate at some point.

[followed by]

Vaccination is totally cooperative – by definition.

You are just not looking deep enough, and therein lies the problem.

Biology is deeply complex – always.

Any and all attempts to simplify it to deliver certainty will cause major risk through over simplification.

I have been deeply interested in biology and systems for well over 50 years, have a reasonably detailed set of models of about 5% of what is known, less detailed but reasonably useful models of about 80% of what is known, little or no knowledge of about 15% of what is known; and I suspect what is known is something less than 20% of what there is to know (vastly more than any human mind is capable of dealing with in detail).

What we are starting to understand about our immune system is beautiful, and deeply complex. RNA on RNA interactions, RNA on DNA interactions, RNA on protein interactions, RNA & protein on RNA, RNA on protein, RNA & protein on DNA, proteins on RNA, proteins on DNA, etc… Then add in the different classes of sugars and fats. Thousands of different systems in every class of sets of molecules. All of these happening in the various environments within each and every cell (the nucleus, the cytoplasm, the various classes of vesicles, the cell membrane, etc). Then you start to look at the various levels of coordination between cells, between different specialisations of cells, different organs, different organisms. It is more than a post, it is a library bigger than any person could read in a lifetime.

The necessary fundamentally cooperative nature of the systems is what allows us to survive at all. So many levels of cooperation, so many levels of systems.

Vaccination works at multiple levels, for multiple classes of well characterised reasons, from the lowest levels on up. It is basic biology.

[followed by – in a subthreat]

Jana Ridout
I have no doubt that there are multiple classes of problems with the existing corporate vaccination systems within the USA.

I have, for 3 decades, been writing about the fundamental issues with that system.

I have no doubt that there are multiple issues with the corporate system of vaccination.

At the same time, I have no doubt that vaccination works. That we eliminated smallpox using vaccination as the tool.

I have no doubt that the MMR vaccine saves vast numbers of children’s lives.

Could we do it all better?

Sure – without doubt. The economic system we have is broken – fundamentally broken.

We need a cooperative base to society if we as a species are to survive long term (I have no shadow of reasonable doubt remaining about that), and that demands deep economic and social reform.

Tom is someone I have never met in person, but we have been interacting online for about 20 years, and I believe him to be fundamentally concerned for the welfare of humanity.

In this instance, I think he has gotten hold of “the wrong end of the bone” (to use a dog analogy).

Sure, there are problems with the vaccination system. Let us fix them.

Don’t make the mistake of thinking that it is vaccination that is the issue.

Sure, for economic and corporate reasons it is certainly being used inappropriately in some instances.

Let’s talk about what is appropriate, let’s not destroy the tool that, after diet, has made the biggest impact on child mortality (and wider mortality within society).

[followed by]

That article entirely misses the point.

The problem with measles is not the direct deaths, it is the indirect ones, because a person who gets measles essentially loses all the immunity that they had previously developed to everything they had encountered, and what they got from their mother.

That is the real risk of measles.

And after the third time, even getting measles is no small thing – it starts to get quite serious.

And I am definitely not saying that any corporation is behaving appropriately – you know what I think about the incentives of our financial system – they are one of the biggest threats we currently face.

[followed by]

Tom,

I have no specific information about the MMR vaccine manufacturing process, and any problems with it, other than the fact that I have had it, as have all members of my family.

The testing regimes seem to be reasonably robust, and they could almost certainly be better.

I do know that since having the vaccine, I have not had measles mumps or rubella. Prior to having the vaccine I had measles 3 or 4 times, mumps twice, rubella at least once. Some of those were very unpleasant experiences, one of them was life threatening. None of my children have had to deal with any of those diseases.

I am very clearly saying that vaccines work.

I am also very clearly saying that I am sure we could get systems that are a lot safer if we did not have a world dominated by monetary incentives.

Those are separate topics, and of course there are some degrees of relationship.

I am certain that humanity is better off for vaccines like smallpox, polio, tetanus, MMR.

And sure, some people have adverse reactions. We need to look at those very carefully, do everything we can to identify and mitigate the actual risks involved, and be confident that we are doing more good than harm. Nothing simple in that !

[followed by]

From my personal experience, I choose vaccines.

Vaccines have eliminated smallpox, and are very close to doing so for polio.

My immune system seems to be functioning just fine.

I have had multiple sets of vaccines, as anyone travelling internationally from NZ must.

Last winter I accidentally hit my leg with a machete, causing a cut that required several stitches, and I had a tetanus booster shot.

I haven’t had a cold or flu or anything else in the last 10 years.

For me, vaccines have worked. My health now, compared to my health pre vaccine, is orders of magnitude better.

I am old enough to remember the days before vaccines were generally available. MMR was introduced to NZ in 1969 (I was 14). Prior to that I would have several weeks away from school each year due to illness.

I really appreciate not being that sick that often.

[followed by]

Tom,

Consider the possibility that most people are now too clean, and that the immunological problems many are experiencing is because their immune systems are not being kept active enough.

I get out in nature and get dirty most days.

What actual evidence do you have that the problem is caused by vaccines?

How many alternative hypotheses have you tested?

What tests have you personally conducted?

What tests that others have done have you evaluated (that means examining not only the results, but all the methodology)?

I see a lot of people taking an overly simplistic approach to a complex issue, and I suspect a lot will die unnecessarily as a result.

This covid pandemic could easily have been avoided had everyone gone into isolation for 6 weeks.

But no.

People were too short sited, too focussed on their minor immediate inconvenience.

So we have a global pandemic we didn’t need to have.

We have governance and economic systems that are broken.

We need global cooperation between multiple levels of diverse agents, not any sort of global control. But right now, the AI systems that are feeding people whatever keeps their attention on a page, are breaking the sensemaking systems. Multiple levels of systems are broken, and economic forces are at the heart of most of what is broken.

So what we need is people working towards genuine cooperation that genuinely benefits everyone on the planet – not any particular subset at the expense of others.

About Ted Howard NZ

Seems like I might be a cancer survivor. Thinking about the systemic incentives within the world we find ourselves in, and how we might adjust them to provide an environment that supports everyone (no exceptions) - see www.tedhowardnz.com/money
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