To a comment from Joe Brewer on Daniel’s Portal post

Comment from Joe Brewer on Daniel’s Portal post

[ 6/4/20 Joe wrote – “… The collapses ARE inevitable—they are part of the self-organizing dynamics of pattern formation inherent to the globalized economy as it came to be structured.”]

Yes, but that doesn’t mean that the current structure is appropriate for the structure going forward.

And I get that is a seriously complex topic, and it is one that must be addressed if we are to have any reasonable probability of a secure future. The existing system simply is not appropriate.

It must change.

Whatever comes out must be decentralised, resilient, and based in abundance and cooperation (rather than scarcity and competition). And of course it can have competitive aspects.

Whatever it is, it must embody the values of individual life and individual liberty first and foremost, and it must also embody ideas of social and ecological responsibility. Those are the basics, inescapable.

We need a serious replacement for Bretton Woods that takes full cognizance of the advances in strategic and evolutionary understandings since then. That is doable, and it is extremely complex.

[followed by]
Portal Podcast – Episode 27

Hi Daniel,

Now that I have taken the time to listen to the podcast in full, and to contemplate on what was said – I say as always we align on far more than we differ, and you both did great, and to me there was one massive hole in the conversation.

At around 2:36:00 and again at 3:33:30 the topic of Dunbar number came up; and to me the major reason for it was missed both times; and getting it will bring many mathematicians like Eric on board much more quickly.

To me it is clear that the major limiting factor on cooperation embodied in the Dunbar number is an ability to remember interactions well enough, over a long enough period, to be able to accurately identify and remove cheating strategies on the cooperative.

Cooperation will only occur in biological contexts when it is advantageous to do so.

This can occur when it allows for the defeat of a common threat that cannot be mitigated individually, or when there is a resource that similarly cannot be accessed individually. Often aspects of both exist over time and context.

And maintaining cooperation demands effective strategies to detect and remove cheating strategies on the cooperative.

We have a name in biology for the unrestrained growth of some subset of a cooperative at the expense of the whole (and eventually to the subset also) – it is called cancer.

It is almost always the result of a failure of a signaling pathway that normally inhibits growth and keeps the systems in balance.

The fact that we can clone animals from any tissue proves that there is nothing inherently special about germ line – it is simply a subset of the cooperative with a particular role – a particular set of signals producing a particular set of structures and behaviours.

We have to accept the reality that we are a global cooperative. We can be nation level cooperatives also, and district level, and community level, and street level, and household, and any number of other groups we belong to (golf clubs, cycle clubs, conservation groups, philosophical groups, production groups, whatever…).

We have to accept that there are many threats that require global cooperation to combat, and this covid-19 things is a tiny taste of it.

We have to accept that we can do far more cooperating together than we can competing in a race to the bottom.

The financial system has to be like the blood system, delivering all that all the cells (people) reasonably need, which is highly variable.

Individual life and individual liberty need to be prime values in social cooperatives, and they must be accompanied with social and ecological responsibility. Nothing less can survive.

Technology now gives us the ability to identify, track and remember interactions across any number of people the solar system is capable of supporting. We can transcend Dunbar’s number. It is not any sort of hard limit. We just need to understand the dimensional depth of what it is.

Some high points of the conversation for me.

35:50 “You can’t keep externalising damage in an exponentialy growing system.”
38:00 Daniel – WWII first time we had existential level technology.
41:50 Daniel “Technology is a lever on our ability to choose.”
43:00 Eric – “Missing Stingers (100)”, “Poisonings and shooting low”
46:20 James Demore situation
48:50 rivalrous dynamics result in exponential increase in risk.
50:20 Russell conjugation – disinform without lying – easy to influence by sharing partial data and hyjacking limbic system.
59:30 Almost everything we do produces negative externalities so they have to be disguised.
1:25:00 contact with the unforgiving
1:26:00 civilisational collapse drivers, loss of generator functions
1:30:00 how the dominant system defines normality
1:41:10 an economy of shame and terror
2:29:00 markets can die from abundance
2:32:30 rivalrous – red in tooth and claw .
2:36:00 other side of the Dunbar number [Mostly about being able to stabilise cooperation by effectively identifying cheats. Cooperation can be stabilised.]
2:45:40 designing systems
2:48:30 multipolar trap
2:58:40 protopian – moving in the right direction
3:01:00 sensemaking
3:02:12 the biggest problem with discussing sexuality is that sex is sexy
3:03:22 the engine of human behaviour, natural vs sexual selection
3:05:40 fundamental rivalry
3:07:20 positive deviant analysis for proof of concept.
3:08:30 minimal requirements for game B
3:17:20
3:20:40 Pleasure
3:22:40 something like spiritual growth that is essential for survival.
3:33:30 Dunbar number again.

About Ted Howard NZ

Seems like I might be a cancer survivor. Thinking about the systemic incentives within the world we find ourselves in, and how we might adjust them to provide an environment that supports everyone (no exceptions) - see www.tedhowardnz.com/money
This entry was posted in Ideas, Our Future, Philosophy, Politics, understanding and tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

Comment and critique welcome

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s